THE FULL FACTS

I have joined this forum in the hope someone can help me out of this nightmarish situation I find myself in. I had my tribunal back in February. I was relieved when I passed, the time between failing my ATOS medical and getting to the tribunal was incredibly stressful and I am sad to say I attempted to commit suicide because of the stress and worry it caused. I was told in the tribunal I had passed, and was given the signed form stating I had passed on reg 29 mainly due to the fact i may harm myself and I have a mental disorder.

I was later told I was placed in the work related group and Pathways my advocates (they have been great) advised me that because of my condition I had recently been diagnosed bipolar, that I should be placed in the support group. I was so stressed and sick of all the hassle and I did not want to end up in the mess I was in before the tribunal I said OK as long as I did not have to be involved. Pathways sent a letter from my psychiatrist, and I was added into the support group.

As this was going on I received a rundown of the events from the tribunal which I wanted to forget so I did not read (I find it difficult to focus on reading at times), but the CAB received a copy and informed me that there was a small mistake on the last page where the result had been changed from passed reg 29 to failed reg 29 and the CAB were writing a letter to find out why. Well on Tuesday I received a letter from the tribunal’s service and they said yes I had failed and they sent a copy of the failed decision sheet which is different to the one I originally received. They said they were informing the DWP immediately.

I could not believe this, I had been there when the judge said I passed and gave his reasons, I had my advocate from Pathways there as well (though she does not work there now due to cutbacks). The tribunal service had sent out the original pass decision to the CAB, the DWP and pathways so they were all a bit surprised by this.

When I spoke to the tribunals service I told them what had happened, and they said they would look into it. They have come back today and said since there is some confusion (there is no confusion they have made screw up) I have to go through the whole tribunal appeal again. NO WAY!!!

I cannot handle doing this again, surely my evidence and the fact I have a witness to state what happened is enough to avoid such a thing happening.

I am near the end of my tether I cannot think straight, I can feel the anxiety increasing; I will have to do something to calm myself down soon. I hope someone can give me some advice please.

That is absolutely disgusting, what a way to treat a human being, I am sorry I don't know what to say to help you but I am sure someone will be along who can. I just wanted ro let you know you are not alone and you have come to the right place for support, hang in there. Xx

dreadfull and discusting i cannot believe the way disabled people are being treated by them revolting slugs at atos and the dwp its all very well saying ok 0 points get a job most of us on here are not currently capable of work i myself am currently unfit to work becauce of mental health and alchol problems lets face it if all of us sick and disabled actually went on jobseekers allowance and went for a job interview we would be turned downed flat it makes no sense at all why dont some of them corrupt politicians who are draining the system with false expense claims and huge bonus benefits try cutting back on there lavish lifestyle surely a disabled person allowed to recover properly would be a better benefit to the system as in fit enough for work its a joke the way were treated

I too have mental health issues and feel for you - the stress must be awful. Please make sure your medical team understand the stress you feel.

I would make sure you get support from CAB and other local welfare support agencies. Let them take the strain. I believe they can also receive your post etc.

I would also get your mp on the case. Contact your mp as a matter of urgency. Mine has been most helpful and sped up the process. Contact your mp on http://www.writetothem.com/

Please keep in touch so you feel less alone. We have all had to navigate the system. You can do this, it will get sorted.

_________________
Forms:

• GL24 (February 2012) - Download pdf
• ESA50 2013 NEW - Download pdf
• ESA113 (03/11) - Download pdf (DWP Form sent to Dr to complete for ESA)

Information:

• Claim Form and medical guide - (Download pdf)
• The Full Facts - Advocacy support list
• Support Group Criteria
• ilegal guide to ESA50 questionnaire
• Turn2us - access to Benefits and Grants
• Contact your local MP
• 2012 WCA handbook pdf
• ATOS official complaints procedure pdf

Really very sorry to hear about the way you have been treated and messed about: no one should have to go through what you have done.

At the risk of sounding intrusive, and I hope you will forgive me if I do, I am currently working on a project for my MA in journalism into the methods used by Atos, and I am especially keen to speak to people who have been forced into nightmarish situations by the company. I completely understand if you would rather not help me with my research, as I realise this might well be the last thing on your mind. If this is the case, then no worries at all, but if you would be happy to help I believe that your story could prove enormously helpful to my project and hopefully go some way towards highlighting the often unheard and untold misery of those who seem to suffer at the hands of Atos. If you would be happy to help out, or just to find out more about the exact research I am doing, then feel free to reply to this comment, or email me. My address is: tom.j.goodenough (at) gmail.com

Once again, no worries at all if you do not feel able to help me with my project, but I would be enormously grateful for any assistance you could provide at all.

All the very best,

Tom Goodenough

Thanks everyone who has replied so far, I appreciate all your kind words. I will write to my MP with this, but I am still in shock to be honest. Tom, I will seriously consider your offer but at this moment I am trying to get my head around it all, and there are other factors to consider unfortunately.

I was hoping whether someone might know if legal action against the decision might help, as I don't know whether I could afford a solicitor, so I would need to be sure it would be successful. Surely they cannot say one thing in the tribunal and then change their minds later, without informing me. I believe firmly they have screwed up and are trying to brush it under the carpet hoping I will accept the appeal set aside ruling.

This government is treating people with mental disabilities as second class citizens, I am sure they are breaking human rights laws in their treatment of us.

Thanks again everyone.

I was thinking too of a legal move for you. lets see if some in the legal business will read your post and offer to help or advise

_________________
IMPORTANT FILES TO HELP UNDERSTAND HOW ESA WORKS
The Full Facts ESA50 Claim form and Guide (pdf download)
This guide is the most important file at site.including what illnesssess do not have to attend a medical
download/file.php?id=66

ESA SUPPORT GROUP CRITERIA
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=321

What to write if you think you should have a home visit
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=620&hilit=home+visit#p1871

Hi Gurdarian,

What a shocking situation!
I think you have to hold onto the positive aspects.
1. You have the original ruling which states you passed on reg 29
2. You had a representative with you (No matter they don't work for pathfinders, they would have had to record the event somewhere)
3. CAB also had a copy of the ruling.

In this regard you have a strong case, Stick with using CAB and Pathfinder's to assist you.
CAB could take things to upper tribunal, and you could be excused attending on medical grounds and CAB rep would attend to argue the points of law regarding the errors by the tribunal services.

I have created a few lists of helpful organisations in the FAQ section (Link at bottom of this post) you may find getting your support worker to contact MIND or DIAL
Ask your CAB welfare rights to cite your case on rightsnet, where there are a few legal bods who may offer them, and in turn you legal support.

I definitely believe you should contact your MP and fill them in on the situation as previously advised.
All the best in your endeavours.

_________________
Forms:

• GL24 (February 2012) - Download pdf
• ESA50 2013 NEW - Download pdf
• ESA113 (03/11) - Download pdf (DWP Form sent to Dr to complete for ESA)

Information:

• Claim Form and medical guide - (Download pdf)
• The Full Facts - Advocacy support list
• Support Group Criteria
• ilegal guide to ESA50 questionnaire
• Turn2us - access to Benefits and Grants
• Contact your local MP
• WCA handbook pdf Revised 2013
• ATOS official complaints procedure pdf

Keep calm and carry on.

Hope you dont mind: Im telling anyone who will listen (and probably) some who dont want to hear of your atrocious story.
Dont worry about privacy coz no one has your details and even I dont have details to your password. The fact you have been brave enough to tell your story will so others in the same position they are not alone. Im hoping some useful advice comes your way
Thinking of you Ms B

_________________
IMPORTANT FILES TO HELP UNDERSTAND HOW ESA WORKS
The Full Facts ESA50 Claim form and Guide (pdf download)
This guide is the most important file at site.including what illnesssess do not have to attend a medical
download/file.php?id=66

ESA SUPPORT GROUP CRITERIA
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=321

What to write if you think you should have a home visit
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=620&hilit=home+visit#p1871

Thanks every one again, I feel like I am stuck between a rock and a hard place with the CAB, the woman I have had helping me doesn't seem to want to go the extra mile. She was the one who wanted me to accept the decision and go for the appeal to be set aside.

I go to a group therapy with MIND on Tuesdays and I will mention it to them then.

Pathways have been great, and they have another advocate helping me but she only works part time because of cutbacks.

Yes I don't mind who you tell about my situation, after reading so many stories on so many websites, forums and blogs it is clear that we are all being class as second class citizens. I have felt lost and alone on many occasions but for some reason this time I feel I need to fight back and not allow them to get away with this.

kab, I will look into what you mentioned thanks.

OMG this is just so very very wrong as how can a person be vindicated at a tribunal and it end up like this?

Gurdarian I am so sorry for your situation and I sincerely hope it gets resolves as quickly as possible.

Miss B I too read the newspaper article on the link you provided and as usual I found that the comments section were mainly concerned with politic fighting about which party is to blame rather than realising they ought to be helping and standing up for the people this is happening to.

It really is a bloody national disgrace

Just wanted to tell everyone who commented I have spoken to my MP's assistant, and they are horrified by the whole episode. It looks like as soon as I give them evidence it will be resolved.

Thanks to everyone who added a comment, it is not over yet but hopefully it will be soon.

Sorry I write again. The tribunals service has said the judge made a mistake on the day and shouldn't have passed me. They claim he made an error in judgment, how can they get away with this, I feel incredibly depressed by all of this.

Gurdarian

I hope your MP can do something to rectify this situation and you receive the justice you deserve however I did not know the following was legal as I thought once a judgement was made that was that?


The tribunals service has said the judge made a mistake on the day and shouldn't have passed me. They claim he made an error in judgement.

The merry-go-round continues and they wonder why people don't get better. I definitely feel they are trying to cover this up, for a few reasons; one if the judge did make a mistake and did change his mind why didn't they tell anyone, immediately. Surely the first people you would tell is the DWP, but no they didn't, it wasn't until later, some months later that I believe Pathways asked for a copy of what was stated that the result had conveniently changed. And it wasn't until the CAB queried the change did the tribunals service tell the DWP.

Now I have been told, since the judge has made his mistake I will have no choice but to go through a set aside appeal and go through the whole business again, but and here is the twist, since the DWP have already put me back into the support group, supposedly they can override this appeal and resolve the matter without anymore fuss. According to Pathways this is the most likely outcome, though not certain.

The problem I have is how can I trust any of this, they don't realise the harm they are causing people, the damage, the pain. When you have a government policy that states everyone is well unless proved ill and mental illness is not a real illness then how can we ever hope to succeed.

My emotions are going up and down like a roller-coaster, its hard to keep up, I have to see Pathways today to see if they have accepted this, and I am seeing my MP afterwards, to discuss further, I think he wants to get the media involved, but I just want to get better, I am sick of all of this.

Hi again Gurdarian,

By posting your comments here, you're letting people know the harm the system is causing the disabled and vulnerable members of society.

This is why involving your MP is very important, the more our stories are heard and acted upon the more impact it will have.



Take strength from the facts: Gross errors and mistakes have been made, you have good evidence and it is down to them to put it right. You sound like you have a good support team behind you.

Believe in yourself, and it will all come right. We can succeed!

_________________
Forms:

• GL24 (February 2012) - Download pdf
• ESA50 2013 NEW - Download pdf
• ESA113 (03/11) - Download pdf (DWP Form sent to Dr to complete for ESA)

Information:

• Claim Form and medical guide - (Download pdf)
• The Full Facts - Advocacy support list
• Support Group Criteria
• ilegal guide to ESA50 questionnaire
• Turn2us - access to Benefits and Grants
• Contact your local MP
• WCA handbook pdf Revised 2013
• ATOS official complaints procedure pdf

Keep calm and carry on.

I have now been told by Pathways that I have to go through the tribunal again, and the DWP will not override the decision. I went to see my MP but they weren't in or didn't answer the door, they wanted me to go down the media route which I now feel i have no choice but to accept.

My psychiatrist is away and I feel sick to death. I did find out that the tribunals service changed the minutes of the tribunal itself, not sure how I could prove this, but I know certainly I mentioned the fact I have attempted to commit suicide and the judge made a point of mentioning this in his closing statement. Now it is conveniently disappeared from the minutes.

The best I can do is make a complaint for negligence, I just find it quite unbelievable that a judge can make a decision on the day and then 6 weeks later change his mind and then tell no one that he has done this. If Pathways had not asked for the minutes no one would ever have been the wiser.

How can they get away with this in a supposed court of law.

re snowman
Just copy and paste what youve said here and post it at your MP AND councillors via the above link over the weekend. DWP appear to pay attention when you have official backing

_________________
IMPORTANT FILES TO HELP UNDERSTAND HOW ESA WORKS
The Full Facts ESA50 Claim form and Guide (pdf download)
This guide is the most important file at site.including what illnesssess do not have to attend a medical
download/file.php?id=66

ESA SUPPORT GROUP CRITERIA
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=321

What to write if you think you should have a home visit
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=620&hilit=home+visit#p1871

My MP only seems interested if I go to the media, I cannot afford to do this now I think about it further. The added stress the way most people feel about mental illness and people on benefits, going to the media may make me worse. I want to crawl into a small ball and disappear. I honestly think if I wasn't on the Sodium Valproate I would have tried something stupid by now. Thanks everyone for your support, but all this is killing me slowly bit by bit.

If they can change the minutes, admit to a mistake and still nothing is done, and no one who matters seems to be interested. I need to think about my health. Unfortunately Herr Cameron and his new age Nazi's know this about us, hence why we are targeted.

Please explain is your MP telling YOU to go to the media? They are supposed to help you

_________________
IMPORTANT FILES TO HELP UNDERSTAND HOW ESA WORKS
The Full Facts ESA50 Claim form and Guide (pdf download)
This guide is the most important file at site.including what illnesssess do not have to attend a medical
download/file.php?id=66

ESA SUPPORT GROUP CRITERIA
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=321

What to write if you think you should have a home visit
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=620&hilit=home+visit#p1871

From how this sounds, it would seem as though your appeal in first - tier tribunal was successful in so far as they allowed it or 'passed it' under regulation 29 of the ESA regulations. I say this in view of your comment that the impression you got when attending the hearing was that it had gone in your favour; it is very unlikely you would have been told you had passed if in fact you had not.

What quite often happens is mistakes are made in writing out the decision-notices. This may have been as a result of a clerical mix up where a clerk to the Tribunal types up the decision notice. In this case it was at first annotated to reflect you had succeeded and then subsequently altered. It sounds to me that the first version of the decision notice (that the appeal was determined in your favour) is more than likely the correct one. It is not beyond the realms and certainly something I have encountered as a welfare benefit specialist in both lower & upper tribunal cases for a mistake to be made afterwards by someone (quite possibly a clerk) who may not have understood what the first tier tribunal had decided. These mistakes are catered for under what are known as 'slip of the pen' mistakes and are capable of correction without having to go through the appeal all over again (it may well be a clerk who has given you this advice). The powers of correction fall under the Tribunal Procedural Rules. The best way of getting to the bottom of this is to write to the Tribunal; quoting all your reference details and enclosing both decision notices. Explain that you think there has been a 'slip of the pen' on the second decision notice and ask for it to be corrected by requesting an 'interlocutory direction', this means your request will be put before a duty judge. In the same letter ask for a 'full statement of the Tribunal's reasons' and also the 'record of proceedings'; both of which should make it clear as to exactly what was actually decided by the Tribunal (it will be written in the record notes). Hopefully it helps clarify that you were awarded ESA on the basis of meeting the conditions under regulation 29. You should explain that you were told at the hearing that you had 'passed'. It is important to do this all within one month of the decision (the second one) being issued to you. Your later post refers to the 'minutes' being altered; the 'record of proceedings' should never be altered as they are a contemporaneous record of what was written down by the judge during the hearing.

I am slightly confused as to why you refer - 'they say the judge has made a mistake'. Who is they? If it is the DWP, it may be that they are challenging the decision made by the Tribunal. It sound like you are getting some good help but you are all up against a system where no one can pin-point what has gone wrong.

I would recommend enlisting the help of a welfare benefit specialist who should be able to help you clarify what has gone wrong. This should avert the need to go through the whole appeal all over again. It is possible that your case is complicated by what appears to be a further decision confirming you had been placed in the Support group which must have been made after the hearing. The key to sorting this sorry saga out is to ascertain what exactly was decided at the Tribunal. It's just such a shame you've had to go through all of this, it is regrettably an all too familiar account of the kind of confusion created by the system.

Unfortunately if it transpires you had not 'passed' you would be looking at an appeal to the Upper Tribunal or making an application to have the decision set aside and re-heard in the first - tier Tribunal; again I would enlist the help of a specialist. An MP will certainly help you raise a complaint but the best help you can get is with a specialist (maybe via the CAB you are dealing with) sorting things out with the Tribunal.

I hope this helps and wish you good luck in correcting what appears to be a mistake.

Nickd

Mylegalforum on Twitter.
mylegal.proboards.com

I am probably talking total rubbish here but if you have written prove you won your appeal surly if the DWP do not agree with the decision they should use the appeal procedure!

If it was me I would send them a copy of the if you do not agree with the decision information and seek legal advice..

What’s good for the Goose is good for the Gander.

_________________
Forms:

• GL24 (February 2012) - Download PDF .
• ESA50 (03/11) - Download PDF.
• ESA113 (03/11) - Download PDF (DWP Form to Dr to Complete for ESA).

Information:

• Claim Form and medical guide - (Download PDF).
• The Full Facts - Advocacy support list.
• Support Group Criteria.

Regarding the MP, I sent the email using the link and the next morning I had an email from MP's assistant, the first thing she said was this is terrible blar de blar, we feel this should go straight to the media. They had misinterpreted what I has said I just wanted it sorted they seem to want to make a big thing out of it. I want to get well, the last thing I need is a big fuss.

I have been hyper all week and now I have come down with a crash and things that seemed so simple on Wednesday and Thursday now seem daunting. Going to the media seemed a good idea on Wed, Thurs, now it doesn't. My emotions are going up and down at an alarming rate. Even writing this now seems difficult.

Anyway after going to pathways hearing what they told me about how they weren't going to override and that they had changed the minutes and that all this seems quite acceptable. I then went along to the MP's office as requested, I had told his assistant i would be along after seeing Pathways. No one answered the door and since it was so hot all the windows were open. I rang four or five times no answer. When I got back in I sent another email, with a mobile number nothing came back.

I don't feel in a positive frame of mind to think this is not a coincidence.

Maybe this is just how its meant to be and maybe the more I pursue this the more it will make me ill, and maybe it is just better getting out before i do something daft again.

To Nickd,

Thanks for your reply, at this moment this is what I know I will try to say it exactly as I have been told as it seems to enter fantasyland when I recall it all. If I say they I mean the tribunals service.

On the day of the tribunal, I went along to give my evidence with a Pathways advocate, I know I discussed my suicide attempt because the doctor asked do I feel different now to before the ATOS medical, I told him before the ATOS medical I only thought of suicide after I attempted to commit suicide, I told him I have slashed my arms and taken an overdose. They then waffled on asking stupid questions and I was asked to leave the room. When I came back I could see in front of me the decision saying passed. I tried to hide my delight. The judge then said on the grounds of my suicide attempt and the fact i may have a mental illness and could be a danger to myself I feel you have satisfied regulation 29. He made a big point of stating this I remember it very clearly.

I received my DWP letter four days later saying I had passed and that they had put me in the work related group. They wrote it in their usual confused gobbledegook. I had to take it to Pathways to get them to decipher it. they said this was a disgrace and I should have been placed in the support group and they would take it to the next level.

five weeks later I received a letter from the tribunals service saying someone had asked for the minutes of the meeting. Since I wanted to forget about the whole business i never read them as I find it difficult to read or focus when stressed. I then received a letter from the CAB saying they had read the minutes and for some reason the decision had changed from satisfied regulation 29 to did not satisfy reg 29. I said it must be a mistake as I have the original doc and I had a witness. The CAB sent a letter to the tribunals service asking for them to clarify the mistake.

in that time Pathways had spoken to my psychiatrist, and she sent a letter about my condition to the DWP, and the DWP said because of this letter I should be moved from the work related group back into the support group I found this out last week.

Then on Monday or Tuesday I forget now my mind is just being blasted with thoughts I received another letter from the tribunals service saying yes there was a mistake and it had been rectified, but the mistake wasn't that they had written down the decision wrong, but that I had passed. As you can imagine this sent me into turmoil and you have all been reading about it since.

The tribunals service screwed up and it seems as though the law allows them to get away with this, because even though they have admitted they made mistakes, even though i had been put back into the support group (I've been taken out again), even though I know that they have changed the minutes, they the tribunal service are just saying well the best we can do is to set aside the appeal and make me go through another one in June. The duty judge agreed to this. How do I prove they have changed the minutes?

the only thing I can think had happened is they have disregarded the information regarding the suicide because it was after the date of the ATOS medical. But surely this does not mean they can delete it especially when the stupid judge made a point of mentioning it in his closing statement.

It seems the only thing I can do is make a complaint, but I don't trust any of them, if they can do this they can do anything and I cannot afford a solicitor to find out. I would presume any decent solicitor would tear this to shreds but it doesn't help me now does it.

Hi Gurdarian and thanks for filling in the details,

What a total mess up this is. I disagree that you need a solicitor, you need a competent & experienced welfare benefit specialist (some CAB & Solicitors employ these as part of their services under the Community Legal Service - although you will need to qualify for legal help). This is the sort of situation a specialist will find relatively straightforward to sort out.

It sounds as though you are now (and by the sound of it quite correctly) in the Support Group so your ongoing entitlement should at least be protected. What needs to be sorted is the past period relating to the saga over the appeal. It is important to protect this as it will probably involve the difference between receiving your full entitlement (whether in the 'WRAG' or 'Support' group) and the assessment rate normally received as you wait for an appeal after being refused ESA following assessment. If you fail the assessment and appeal you are placed in the assessment phase pending your appeal. It is also important to protect the continuity of your claim to get the proper outcome of the previous Tribunal hearing sorted out.

A specialist should be able to help you prepare an application for interlocutory direction with a submission asking for the previous decision refusing your ESA to be set aside. It would be helpful to include copies of the tribunal's reasons & record of proceedings with the application in the form of a well set out submission. The submission should cover the period up to the date you have most recently been placed in the support group. I am bewildered as to why the Tribunal appear to have backtracked on a decision that initially supported you in regulation 29. Reg 29 relates to 'Exceptional Circumstances'

Exceptional circumstances

29.—(1) A claimant who does not[My emphasis] have limited capability for work as determined in accordance with the limited capability for work assessment is to be treated as having limited capability for work if paragraph (2) applies to the claimant.


(2) This paragraph applies if—


(a)the claimant is suffering from a life threatening disease in relation to which—
(i)there is medical evidence that the disease is uncontrollable, or uncontrolled, by a recognised therapeutic procedure; and
(ii)in the case of a disease that is uncontrolled, there is a reasonable cause for it not to be controlled by a recognised therapeutic procedure; or
(b)the claimant suffers from some specific disease or bodily or mental disablement and, by reasons of such disease or disablement, there would be a substantial risk to the mental or physical health of any person if the claimant were found not to have limited capability for work.

The problem with regulation 29 is that you can only apply it if the Tribunal concludes you do not meet the limited capability for work assessment (i.e. you would not score sufficient points to satisfy the test). Given your stated problems I would have thought you would have met any number of descriptors from the mental, cognitive and intellectual function part of the assessment. The mistake the first tribunal may have made is to have failed to conclude you would not have scored sufficient points before even considering whether regulation 29 applied.

What needs to be done here is to make a proper application to sort it out using all the evidence from the first Tribunal. It needs to be well argued and should set out whether you do meet the test in the normal scoring way and if not whether regulation 29 applies. It seems quite clear that one or the other applies and furthermore it seems arguable that you should have been placed in the support group for the period before your most recent award. Regrettably unless it can be sorted out without a hearing I rather suspect you may have to attend a further hearing. However, I would only do so with someone who can argue your case and point out that the previous tribunal appeared to have accepted your were entitled in the original hearing. Any re-hearing should not be conducted by the same panel members (Judge & Doctor) who decided the case before. The need for proper help is paramount to alleviate you of the stress of having to worry about all of the legalities; - these should be sorted out a specialist who knows & can question how the hearing was conducted.

Again, I hope this helps. I'm sorry if it sound complicated but the reality is that it is. Her Majesty's Government MP's have in a majority decided in their infinite wisdom that Tribunals are 'user - friendly' and appellants are in their estimation quite capable of sorting this out for themselves - it's absurd and your MP needs to be aware of this. In my experience I work very closely with our local MP (who is a rare breed of listening Tory) and I say 'let me sort the Tribunal side of all of this' and I ask my MP to take note of my concern and continue to lobby for better assessment, access to justice and a less chaotic & fairer Tribunal system) - it is a a good thing for specialists to work with their MP's to point out where this is all going horribly wrong.

Thank goodness for our respective forums (Miss B's is excellent) on social media where we at least try and help thousands of victims of this chaotic system

Nickd

Mylegalforum on Twitter.
mylegal.proboards.com

Thanks Nick I will pass on your comments.