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adeya
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 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:04 pm |
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Hi guys, like many others come the end of April I will be losing my esa cont based and wont get a penny as my wife earns slightly more than that allowed for an income based claim-even though nowhere near enough realistically to live on! Now I'm not disabled enough to be placed in the support group, but will equally never be able to take up proper employment(fully supported by my gp and consultants), but apparently I will be ready for employment at a later time! Will I not then be forced to claim jsa to get any money at all whilst still being signed off as unfit for work, so how will this lie when the Dwp will constantly monitor my getting back to work? How will these people then be able to chastise me for not returning to work when it will be documented that this will not be possible-even though by atos's own measurements I would qualify for esa, but only for up to 365 days! Am I right in that I've heard that I will need to wait 6 months after esa cont stops to then lodge another claim for esa cont again? And also during this 6 months the dwp won't be able to chase me at all for pushing me back into work I could not do? Love to hear others' views and thoughts on this. P.S. Great to have the site back-massive support and advice for all esa peeps. 
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kab
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Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:48 pm |
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Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:01 pm
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Hi Adeya, Thanks for your update, and your subsequent questions. 1. Did you appeal your decision? 2. Don't believe your not disabled enough. If you have support from GP/Consultant/Pain Management etc. Your questions do throw up a lot of potential issues and a glaring GAP in the new reforms. In the first instance I would contact your MP feel free to refer them here, so they can read your threads. I think if each and everyone make's sure their MP is representing them in Government by asking these and similarly based question of the MP to ask in the house, someone may come up with a definitive answer or realise the potential issues. Its ludicrous that disabled folk are being time limited on benefits, and the alternative is job seekers if you do not qualify for means tested ESA or HB/CTB? They won't know if we don't alert them. I feel the period for reclaiming ESA needs clarifying, how can a time limit for reclaiming be imposed by DWP when the DWP are the ones imposing the time limit in the first place.  Contact your MP if this is happening to you now/or is about to happen. Let them work for us! http://theyworkforyou.comI will start a new topic if you will submit your MP's response's for publication. Meanwhile Adeya, keep posting and let us know how it goes appealing and raising these questions with your MP! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***Update*** Please see similar thread. viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1270Then this pdf update from Miss B viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1272And this snippet regarding NI contributions on DWP.pdf http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/esa-changes.pdfQuote: from page 2.
3. We will continue to provide claimants whose ESA(C) will be stopped with National Insurance credits if they are eligible. People who do not qualify for income related ESA (IR) (ESA IR) will still be able to claim National Insurance credits awarded on the grounds of limited capability for work following exhaustion of ESA (C) entitlement.
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olichris
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Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:23 pm |
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Hi, you may find it interesting to look at the other discussion just mentioned, on looking it seems there may be ways through this, I certainly feel a little more optimistic and there may be more information and options to be discovered yet !
Oli
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kab
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Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:12 am |
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Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:01 pm
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IMPORTANT Additional update:this is the DWP ESA Changes Q and A pdf linked on last page in previous DWP document on my last post. Please do read as it does cover some questioned posed in these threads.  Page 7/12 Quote: If a claimant receives National Insurance credits only, will they still need to attend medical assessments?
Claimants can receive National Insurance credits awarded on the grounds of limited capability for work following exhaustion of contribution-based Employment and Support Allowance entitlement. This will allow them to maintain their National Insurance contribution record. Claimants will still be required to complete a limited capability for work questionnaire (ESA50) and participate in the Work Capability Assessment where necessary. Page 8/12 Quote: What are you doing to support vulnerable claimants?
Only claimants who have alternative resources available to them will not qualify for income-related Employment and Support Allowance.
We have designed the process to support vulnerable claimants. The process includes consideration of additional telephone contact and safeguarding visits for vulnerable claimants. People affected by the changes to contribution- based Employment and Support Allowance will also have access to our existing face-to-face services and we will make reasonable adjustments as appropriate. Page 9/12 Quote: How does time limiting affect me if I am appealing?
Any time spent in the Assessment Phase will count towards the 365 day time- limit unless it is immediately followed by the support component.
If you are appealing a decision that you are fit for work you may receive Employment and Support Allowance at the Assessment phase rate and your contribution-based Employment and Support Allowance will be subject to time-limiting. You will also be subject to time-limiting if you are appealing against a decision to place you in the Work Related Activity Group. *****ESA CB WRAG from April 30 2012? do download and read the DWP pdf below of questions and answers*****
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adeya
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Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:23 pm |
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Medical assessment in January where I was placed in the wrag with a review for 6 months time-well past the end of April when payment fo benefit stops. Therefore cannot appeal as time limits passed!!
On the one hand dwp saying unfit for work, whilst on the other hand they're not going to give me nowt unless ni credits, which unfortunately don't pay bills. If come May I claim jsa to get any sort of benfit to help live on, they cannot then chastise me for not getting a job can they-what a joke!! Why should I stay with esa, keep attending medical, filling out forms, continuous stress/worry just for these people to give me nothing!!! I'm not just after a hand out, but trying to get by in a situation which is hard enough even with the benefit that gets paid now, let alone when this has stopped!
System a complete farce, but now going to look at the threads/topics you guys have advised to see if any further good ideas here.
Cheers.
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kab
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:45 am |
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Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:01 pm
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adeya wrote: Medical assessment in January where I was placed in the wrag with a review for 6 months time-well past the end of April when payment fo benefit stops. Therefore cannot appeal as time limits passed!!
On the one hand dwp saying unfit for work, whilst on the other hand they're not going to give me nowt unless ni credits, which unfortunately don't pay bills. If come May I claim jsa to get any sort of benfit to help live on, they cannot then chastise me for not getting a job can they-what a joke!! Why should I stay with esa, keep attending medical, filling out forms, continuous stress/worry just for these people to give me nothing!!! I'm not just after a hand out, but trying to get by in a situation which is hard enough even with the benefit that gets paid now, let alone when this has stopped!
System a complete farce, but now going to look at the threads/topics you guys have advised to see if any further good ideas here.
Cheers. Adeya, Try and rise above the mists of your understandable anger and frustration, you need to take these steps. 1. As suggested above Contact your MP, they need to know the implications of this situation to their constituents personally and across the country as a whole. Feedback to them is essential. and keep feeding back to them during the process. 2. Contact WR at CAB or local Authority, or even your specific Disability group and seek advice on what to do next, with the NI contributions situation, you need advice, otherwise it could impact Pension in future. 3. Check your entitlement to other benefits, or pass ported benefits, using the calculator. http://www.turn2us.org.uk/benefits_search.aspx Only you know you and your families full financial circumstances, and this should give you an indication of CTB or HB or Tax credits if applicable do the calculation with and without ESA and/or JSA. 4. Remember you are not alone in this situation, we at The Full Facts are trying to find as much information as we can as to how this and other welfare reforms will impact disabled in general. As you can see Olichris and other are facing the same scenario, we can support and help each other by taking similar steps and also then giving feedback here, to assist others.  _________________ Forms:Information:Keep calm and carry on.
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TiddK
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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:51 pm |
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adeya wrote: Will I not then be forced to claim jsa to get any money at all whilst still being signed off as unfit for work, so how will this lie when the Dwp will constantly monitor my getting back to work?
How will these people then be able to chastise me for not returning to work when it will be documented that this will not be possible-even though by atos's own measurements I would qualify for esa, but only for up to 365 days!
This seems to have become a bit of a myth in these forums, I'm not sure where it came from. The fact is, only those whose ESA claims are rejected and found "fit for work" are then advised to claim JSA (or if their IB > ESA assessment came to the same conclusion). If you have been placed in the WRAG it means that the DWP regard you as having "limited capability for work" and not required to sign on as unemployed. Once your Cont. ESA expires you would be expected to claim Income ESA. However if you can't get that, you would have to sign yourself off as "fit for work" in order to stand any chance of claiming JSA. But that would of course make any future chance of claiming ESA again for the same condition virtually impossible. Sorry to be a gloom mongerer but the way things stand now, those whose Cont. ESA ends and can't claim Income ESA, lose their benefits sadly. _________________ Forms:Information:
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kab
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:26 am |
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Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:01 pm
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adeya wrote: Medical assessment in January where I was placed in the wrag with a review for 6 months time-well past the end of April when payment fo benefit stops. Therefore cannot appeal as time limits passed!!
Aside from the new clarified information TiddK has supplied in relation to JSA being a big NO NO. Never say never! I believe that with the advice from CAB/WR Some facing this situation may well have "good cause for late appeal to support group" and we will see a flurry of late appeal requests. if you each consider your own situation, do you meet criteria/descriptors for support group, do you have the medical evidence to quantify and support this type of appeal? This is why it is imperative you seek proper advice to discuss your situation and keep your MP in the loop with feedback, as this is new ground being covered. _________________ Forms:Information:Keep calm and carry on.
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olichris
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:57 pm |
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Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 1:42 am
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I have to agree with Kab, there are possible ways around this and the situation is not really clear, but there seem to be at least three possible options, transfer to income based group, transfer to support group, and wait 12 weeks then reapply, at the very worst the last option, if it is as so far researched, puts you back to step one but at least you would know how to prepare and what to expect ?!
By all means correct me if I have got this wrong as I am in this situation and any further clarification would be gratefully accepted !
Oli
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kab
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:08 pm |
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olichris wrote: I have to agree with Kab, there are possible ways around this and the situation is not really clear, but there seem to be at least three possible options, transfer to income based group, transfer to support group, and wait 12 weeks then reapply, at the very worst the last option, if it is as so far researched, puts you back to step one but at least you would know how to prepare and what to expect ?!
By all means correct me if I have got this wrong as I am in this situation and any further clarification would be gratefully accepted !
Oli Hi Oli, I think regarding IR ESA you will be automatically considered for this. If you got into support group by appealing, you would stay in support group for the period defined. I think the third option would be to "leave" your claim for 12 weeks, just have NI credit then be able to reapply. This is mentioned in some of the .pdf files and DWP documentation, above. Have you received any of the promised paperwork yet, I would be interesting to see scan's with personal info omitted. I repeat: Contact CAB/WR for advice ASAP _________________ Forms:Information:Keep calm and carry on.
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TiddK
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:40 am |
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This raises an interesting question.
If hypothetical person A has their Cont. ESA stopped after 12 months and they can't claim Income ESA...
How long before A could go down the JobCentre and claim JSA on the grounds they want to work? Obviously the DWP has A on record as a member of WRAG, but if A claims he wants to work and wants to sign on for JSA, would the DWP have the power to prevent it? And if so, how long after the stopping of ESA would A be able to go down this new route?
This appears to be a conundrum not thought about to date. I suppose it depends on the nature of JSA - if, like ESA, it's split into Contributory and Income based, then A has no luck. His record would be too short to claim the first, and he would not qualify for the second.
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kab
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:12 am |
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Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:01 pm
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Goodness Tiddk, that sounds like a mathematical problem of gargantuan proportions. Will have to read again tomorrow, _________________ Forms:Information:Keep calm and carry on.
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olichris
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:03 am |
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Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 1:42 am
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Hi Kab
Not yet received my "mountain" of paperwork through the letter box but will let you know when I do.
Somehow I get the feeling that it will almost certainly not answer a number of the questions that have already been raised here such as if you do decide to appeal or request a transfer to support/income groups , who exactly do you appeal to ? and what are you entitled to claim during the transfer/ reassessment phase.
I appreciate your advice to go to CAB/ WR for more specific advice and would endorse it for all.
Only problem is so far CAB know less about this than I do !!! Let's hope things get clearer but it seems to me that a lot of the "side effects"/ implications of the change to 365 days has clearly not been thought out or planned for !
Oli
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kab
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:15 pm |
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Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:01 pm
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olichris wrote: Hi Kab
Not yet received my "mountain" of paperwork through the letter box but will let you know when I do.
Somehow I get the feeling that it will almost certainly not answer a number of the questions that have already been raised here such as if you do decide to appeal or request a transfer to support/income groups , who exactly do you appeal to ? and what are you entitled to claim during the transfer/ reassessment phase.
I appreciate your advice to go to CAB/ WR for more specific advice and would endorse it for all.
Only problem is so far CAB know less about this than I do !!! Let's hope things get clearer but it seems to me that a lot of the "side effects"/ implications of the change to 365 days has clearly not been thought out or planned for !
Oli Oli, Look at the flow chart above - and the documents contained in that post, some vulnerable customers will get extra steps, I guess it depends on your medical and financial situation if your in that vulnerable group. Steps 5,6,7 and 8. I assure you WR and CAB are updated and notified via various organisations, and the welfare rights team will be more aware than you or I of the way forward, so please do not hesitate seeking advise so you are on the books so to speak. Do not lose hope ...one day at a time. _________________ Forms:Information:Keep calm and carry on.
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olichris
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:05 pm |
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Thanks Kab, I will contact the local WR team who did help me with my successful appeal, they were also better informed last time than the CAB.
Oli
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kab
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:35 pm |
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olichris wrote: Thanks Kab, I will contact the local WR team who did help me with my successful appeal, they were also better informed last time than the CAB.
Oli Good Luck Oli, if you have time please keep in touch, your story may help others. _________________ Forms:Information:Keep calm and carry on.
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swampiesue
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:08 pm |
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Not sure if you will see my question tagged on the bottom of here, but will give it a try...  Am I right in thinking that JSA can only be claimed for 6 months, so after that people will lose the money after 6 months as well.. also don't you have to be available for work 40 hours a week which would be near on impossible for someone who cannot work despite the outcome of the Work Capability Test. Also once the ESA claim comes to an end, does that mean despite being of limited Capability to Work, when you claim ends and enough NI stamps for your Pension. Over 30 Years. Do the DWP just wash their hands of you completely. As in the interviews and other stuff. There is no way I will be able to work, regardless of what the DWP or anyone says,
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TiddK
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:48 pm |
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swampiesue wrote: Not sure if you will see my question tagged on the bottom of here, but will give it a try... Am I right in thinking that JSA can only be claimed for 6 months, so after that people will lose the money after 6 months as well.. also don't you have to be available for work 40 hours a week which would be near on impossible for someone who cannot work despite the outcome of the Work Capability Test. Also once the ESA claim comes to an end, does that mean despite being of limited Capability to Work, when you claim ends and enough NI stamps for your Pension. Over 30 Years. Do the DWP just wash their hands of you completely. As in the interviews and other stuff. There is no way I will be able to work, regardless of what the DWP or anyone says, Various assumptions here that are not quite right. 1. JSA cannot follow on when CB ESA expires. ESA means "limited capability for work", while JSA as you say, means being available for full time work. If someone isn't entitled to IR ESA for whatever reason, their income comes to a sudden halt. 2. Once the CB ESA claim comes to an end, you should still be able to claim NI credits - which is worth doing, as one day it will mean that you become entitled once again to CB ESA. 3. Don't sign on as unemployed if not entitled to IR ESA - for one thing, the DWP may not accept the claim, for another it might prove impossible to claim ESA again in the future if everyone including you yourself regards you as "fit for work". _________________ Forms:Information:
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stree
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:33 pm |
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I have been reading through this thread with interest, as it covers a situation I am more than likely to encounter, ie: having my contributions based ESA cease after 365 days. I am not a candidate for support group and I will not be able to claim under income related ESA and will not be any more capable of work come that time, so I accept that I have my payments stop until I am in a position to reapply.
So that being the case, what I have gleaned from this thread ( and elswhere on this site, but this thread seems to encapsulate it ) is that even though ESA payments will cease after 365 days it is still possible to claim NI contributions to keep your record up to date.
This next part I have seen mentioned, but not yet on any DWP documents:
It is possible to make a further claim for ESA after a period of 12 weeks has elapsed.
Now, for the time being assuming that this IS the case, then my next question is this.
When making the fresh claim under these circumstances is it possible to backdate the beginning point of the new claim to run on from the last day of benefit being paid under the previous ESA claim?
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TiddK
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:56 pm |
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AFAIK (this is not definitive) the answer is "No", as otherwise there would be no point to the 365-day limit to Contribution Based ESA at all. The claim will - I'm 90% sure - start from the date you sign and send off the new ESA50.
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slipmaster
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:17 pm |
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unless you still meet conditions for contribution based esa it will be income related so you wont get any benefit still and to meet the conditions you must have been working and paying ni contributions in the previous two/three years before your claim (not sure of years without looking up regs) But if you migrated from IB it wont apply to you so only way to get benefit is get support group
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TiddK
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Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:42 pm |
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slipmaster wrote: unless you still meet conditions for contribution based esa it will be income related so you wont get any benefit still and to meet the conditions you must have been working and paying ni contributions in the previous two/three years before your claim (not sure of years without looking up regs) But if you migrated from IB it wont apply to you so only way to get benefit is get support group Ah, but when someone hasn't worked for years and been on Incapacity Benefit (like me), they accrue NI Credits and so many (most?) people migrated from Incapacity Benefit qualify for Contribution Based ESA. If they get put in the WRAG then it will only last 12 months, so yes, the Support Group is the only way to prevent that happening. _________________ Forms:Information:
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stree
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:44 pm |
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I am back to this thread because A. it is obviously important to a lot of us what happens in these cases of Contribution based ESA running out, and B. Because suddenlyon the day I am posting my ESA50 I find out from the Doctor that he classes me as severely disabled. This could mean I go int the support group.
I notice in Tiddk1s post above the line " so yes, the Support Group is the only way to prevent that happening."
Is this in the case of those who transrerred from IB only or apply to all claimants getting contributions based payments?
In other words, will being in the support group mean any real difference to my claim?
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TiddK
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Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:32 pm |
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stree wrote: I am back to this thread because A. it is obviously important to a lot of us what happens in these cases of Contribution based ESA running out, and B. Because suddenlyon the day I am posting my ESA50 I find out from the Doctor that he classes me as severely disabled. This could mean I go int the support group.
I notice in Tiddk1s post above the line " so yes, the Support Group is the only way to prevent that happening."
Is this in the case of those who transrerred from IB only or apply to all claimants getting contributions based payments?
In other words, will being in the support group mean any real difference to my claim? Yes - it doesn't matter how you get in the Support Group, once in, the ESA is paid until your next assessment. It doesn't expire after a year. _________________ Forms:Information:
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stree
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Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:21 am |
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Tiddk, Thank you. That is the single most important piece of information I have seen or received here. It is important because it outlines the major difference between being in wrag and being in support, in that the payments are not stopped after a year.
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skippydoo
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Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 3:54 pm |
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Posts: 16
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Who is saying that NI credits count towards being able to reapply for contribution based esa? I don't think that is correct information. The only way that you can reapply for Contribution based esa is to work again i think either employed or self employed. Well to add to my story from last year (link here..... viewtopic.php?t=1377&p=6449) I am now back to square one but with a major op and other problems too. I was originally claiming ESA for a mixture of mental and physical problems, mainly mental problems (THEY SAID). I had my 365 days worth like many and took the little job (which is what i was going to do from my other thread) and continued with getting help from the mental health service and doctors. I had been complaining for years of a various problems of dizziness and other problems and recurrent infections, ear problems but since i had mental health problems too I was not really listened to and given numerous antibiotics each time and patted on the head and sent away. Anyway after getting my job and paying my way for a while i had more ear problems but persisted with working regardless and eventually i was sent to ENT for an assessment (seems working helped with my referral too!!!). Long story short I had a complicated benign tumour that was growing on the face nerve and also close to brain and I had surgery to remove it a few weeks ago. WHen they got in there it was a lot more complicated than the ct scan showed. I had worked for six months but i had my op just a week before my probation period at work was up. I assumed i would be fine to return to work but to my amazement i have been sacked with no contractual rights as they sacked me within my probation period giving me one weeks notice because of having to pay sick pay i assume although i was will to go back. They said they had done a risk assessment on my work on me and i was not fit for work. I only had the minimal time off for my sugery and even though i had another sick note from my doctors I was wanting to return to work. They would not accept my return. I admit my surgery was extensive and I also had other problems but i need money so have to put myself at risk. I have today rang ESA to claim again as I had made voluntary NI contribtions because I also did a small amount of self emloyment and i think as it reads 6 months of class 2 contributions is enough but i have no idea if they will accept the claim. I have also had to ring my doctors again for another fit note as I assumed they would definately give me one (i still have ear infections at the moment and my head is stil healing from my cranial graft and it was their fit note that got me sacked originally) but I have just had a call from the doctors receptionist to say that i have to go in as with the new rules of ESA I would be fit for another type of employment?????? (maybe because i argued that i could have gone back to work even though they were saying i was unfit out of desperation because i dont want to lose my home) I seem to be banging my head against a brick wall in that I was sacked due to being a risk to myself by working and the doctors are saying I am fit for "other type work"... is this correct. I need some sort of income? Is it right now that if you cannot do your original job and get sacked you cannot claim as you can do some other job. I am still recovering now. I only did the job of cleaning (and I was good at it) because it was close to home and all that i could manage for then because of my other problems. I feel so fed up. I was only trying to help myself. When i took the job i mentioned my stress and despression and hypertension but as it was only part time they took me on then. I assumed my other problems were all MENTAL problems and i was told for two years prior that my ear problem was just infections. I had no idea of the tumour growing and was never offered to get referred to ENT. It was only a few months after getting employed that they eventually referred me. It was a good job they did too. Now I am worse off. I cannot work because they wont let me and my claim for ESA was closed by me because I thought i would be OK although it was agreed i was still unfit for work up to April of this year from my last assessment. I needed the money though so put myself at risk as i have a family, bills to pay and debts like most people and although my husband works and earns we still need two incomes. I know for definate that i could not sustain full time work though although i have done 16 hours a week for 6 months but it was within a 5 minute walk from my home. Some of the hours have been self employed and i was able to work around myself. I could not do "just anything".
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