THE FULL FACTS

Got a phone call from the DWP ( SO FAR THEY HAVE BEEN GREAT WITH ME !!) letting me know that as of the end of April those of us who have been on ESA ( wrag not support) will have it ceased.
Apparently the law change has just been sanctioned amd will apply from the end of april.
Of course we will all miraculously recover on the last day of april !! Sorry couldn't resist that one.
The lady on the line was as helpful as she could be and warned me of a load of correspondence coming my way regarding this, so any like me who have been on wrag for 2 years may be getting the same.
What to do !!!!!
The lady tried to make suggestions and certainly I agreed that when I am able to get out and cope some advice from the local job centre, who have also been great, would be helpful.

The best suggestion seemed to be appeal to be moved to the support group, after all previously there was always the risk that you would lose and possibly the ESA also, but now what is there to lose ????

Doesn't seems clear yet whether you appeal to the dwp, that "french lot" or the appeals panel, nor if you will continue to get at least the assessment rate whilst appealing, bet that hasn't even been worked out yet !
Please feel free to correct or add anything to what I have said, only found this out today so any info would be welcomed.

OLI

This may help explain what is changing:

_________________
Forms:

• GL24 (February 2012) - Download PDF .
• ESA50 (03/11) - Download PDF.
• ESA113 (03/11) - Download PDF (DWP Form to Dr to Complete for ESA).

Information:

• Claim Form and medical guide - (Download PDF).
• The Full Facts - Advocacy support list.
• Support Group Criteria.

Thanks for the link toolbox, I read it all and was as confused at the end as most of the contributors !
Appealing for a benefit they can't pay you for example to maintain your NI credits ?!
The previous system was a mess but this seems even worse if that's possible, or is that the idea ??

Guess I'll have to wait for the volume of mail I am due to try and make sense of it, but it seems to me there are a lot of questions unanswered and in the meantime all of us in WRAG for more than 365 days have to wade through it all.

I am still of the feeling that perhaps appealing to go into the support group might be a good option for some, but I can't see anywhere if :

1. You are paid some form of ESA/ Benefit whilst appealing
2. Who you appeal to ie DWP, Decision maker, Independant Appeals Panel
3. If you lose could you lose your entitlement to NI credits
4. What the precise procedure for appealing is

Guess we will just have to keep updating this issue as and when the letterboxes start dropping their stuff, though I will be very suprised if any of the paperwork will answer any of the above questions.

Oli

Basicly, you get 365 days on WRAG ESA (contibution) then after that you have to claim JSA (meens tested)

So if you started on ESA last April this April it will end and you will be on JSA that is also meens tested.

_________________
Forms:

• GL24 (February 2012) - Download PDF .
• ESA50 (03/11) - Download PDF.
• ESA113 (03/11) - Download PDF (DWP Form to Dr to Complete for ESA).

Information:

• Claim Form and medical guide - (Download PDF).
• The Full Facts - Advocacy support list.
• Support Group Criteria.

Thanks again toolbox, I have done a lot more research and whilst everything is not clear the following seems pretty solid information :

Those on the WRAG Contributory group ( ie those who qualified on the basis of NI Contributions ) will have their ESA stopped after 365 days, time on it already is counted as "time served" so to speak so if you have already been on it for 12 months plus it stops at the end of april.

The changes do not apply to those in the support group or those who have WRAG due to income ( or rather lack of it !)

The options I have so far managed to root out are :

Just to accept it.

To reapply for ESA in the knowledge that even if you win you will not get any money, only the continuation of your NI contributions, this means the usual nauseating game of ATOS, Appeal etc

To appeal on the basis of a worsening of your condition to be placed in the support group, I can find no guidance whatsoever on the process for this or what happens whilst you are appealing ( ie do you get the assessment rate ?!)

To ask to placed in the income related group of ESA recipients as opposed to the contributions based group, but as far as I can gather they have made this more difficult by counting a partners income as if it were your own. However this may be a good route for those with under £16000 in savings and whatever the income limit is ( can't find this out yet )

To migrate onto jobseekers allowance ?!, actually this one I have managed to find very little about,it seems like lunacy, you could have gps and specialists reports saying you are not fit for work, you may have "passed" the Atos test or the appeals panel thus confirming you cannot work and yet miraculously after 365 days you can apply for a benefit that implies you are fit and able to work and are looking for it !!

What more can I say !!

Please add any comments to update or correct anything I have said. I think there are a lot of questions to be answered.
Oli

Hi Oli, Thanks for your posts.


Again more great questions being raised.
I have just replied to similar post see below, and I think we should be asking these questions of our MP's.


viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1280

meanwhile I will see if I can locate further info on this subject.

***Update ***
Okay now what little brain I had is frazzled!
Having quickly skimmed a few documents and have concluded that.

ESA CB is based on previous NI contributions, and the new requirement seems to indicate having 12 weeks leave or break between claims.
Then reclaim ESA CB in the hope of SG - Will the JCP will be expecting a deluge of disabled LCW job seekers? NI credits seem to be the key here. Seek advice from CAB Welfare rights

The other point or angle is if the working partner is eligible for any Working tax credits due to the loss of ESA payment/plus HB or CTB

Please do seek advice from CAB/Welfare Rights if you are in this situation. The NI contributions stuff is complex to say the least and WR will need to look at each individual case and advise the way forward.
I can say, they are expecting the deluge.
I will add more as I can

_________________
Forms:

• GL24 (February 2012) - Download pdf
• ESA50 2013 NEW - Download pdf
• ESA113 (03/11) - Download pdf (DWP Form sent to Dr to complete for ESA)

Information:

• Claim Form and medical guide - (Download pdf)
• The Full Facts - Advocacy support list
• Support Group Criteria
• ilegal guide to ESA50 questionnaire
• Turn2us - access to Benefits and Grants
• Contact your local MP
• WCA handbook pdf Revised 2013
• ATOS official complaints procedure pdf

Keep calm and carry on.

Hi Kab, thanks for the reply and for option 6 ! That is reapplying after 12 weeks, I did notice something about it in my research but to be honest couldn't make head nor tails of it.
Seems like a good option if you have already satisifed our various "friends" in this process once, but no doubt the onus will be on us once again to prove our claim rather than them to prove otherwise.

I think this is the option that seems most promising so I will look into it if I can, but I would imagine the process will be a mess and I wonder if there is an actual process that has been set up yet !, my guess would be that it will be as if you were starting from scratch again, but does one get the assessment rate whilst waiting etc etc ?

Any further clarification or info on this particular option would be really useful as it is probably the one I will go for or possibly the "upgrade" to the support group.

However the one bright thing seems to be that there do seem to be some more options than just going onto JSA which is obviously what "they" want you to do, or give up in total frustration !

Oli

NO NO NO!!!! (I'd better get a macro to paste out this reply, I seem to be making it so often!) You CAN'T move from ESA WRAG to JSA without being found "fit to work" - and by being in the WRAG it's already been found that you AREN'T "fit for work" (you have "limited capability"). You'd have to sign yourself off as "fit to work" - even assuming the DWP accept this (strangely, they might well not), you'd never be able to claim ESA again for the same condition.

_________________
Forms:

• GL24 (February 2012) - Download pdf
• ESA50 2013 NEW - Download pdf
• ESA113 (03/11) - Download pdf (DWP Form sent to Dr to complete for ESA)

Information:

• Claim Form and medical guide - (Download pdf)
• The Full Facts - Advocacy support list
• Support Group Criteria
• ilegal guide to ESA50 questionnaire
• Turn2us - access to Benefits and Grants
• Contact your local MP
• 2012 WCA handbook pdf
• ATOS official complaints procedure pdf

Thank you for the above Tiddk, I hope this will clarify this point. JSA is NOT an OPTIONAL route in this situation.
If the DWP telephone you and suggest or mention JSA this is wrong for current recipients of Time limiting ESA CB WRAG because of the reasoning above.
I'm not sure if this is actually the case with DWP mentioning JSA or has been quoted elsewhere and read as verbatim and snowballed.

Please seek advice from CAB/WR sooner rather than later.

_________________
Forms:

• GL24 (February 2012) - Download pdf
• ESA50 2013 NEW - Download pdf
• ESA113 (03/11) - Download pdf (DWP Form sent to Dr to complete for ESA)

Information:

• Claim Form and medical guide - (Download pdf)
• The Full Facts - Advocacy support list
• Support Group Criteria
• ilegal guide to ESA50 questionnaire
• Turn2us - access to Benefits and Grants
• Contact your local MP
• WCA handbook pdf Revised 2013
• ATOS official complaints procedure pdf

Keep calm and carry on.

Hi,

Sorry if I have misled anyone, I thought I was trying to point out that there are more choices for those in this situation than somehow being "migrated"/ transferred to JSA.
If that is not an option under any circumstances then fair enough, or is the point that it is not a wise/sensible option ?. As long as there is a better alternative(s) then that's fine, but if no transfer to income based/support group or 12 week reapplication, work or are possible - what then ? If you don't get JSA then you get nowt at all as far as I can see! and whilst you are waiting for the transfer/appeal/12 week reapplication what does one live on ?
I see the reasons for not going onto JSA, but if all else fails, is it still not an option to get at least some income ?
If JSA is not an option at all then someone in my position ( after having tried the other things) is well and truly *********

Oli

Hi Oli,
The JSA theory is being generally mentioned, perhaps incorrectly across various forums, and indeed some may have taken this route.

However, I think the points Tiddk raises are, It would not be a wise option for the reasons given. You are not suddenly "fit for work" you still have "limited capability", and this would preclude you from reclaiming for the same illness/disability in the future.

Hence me reiterating seek proper WR advice ASAP, your personal circumstance both financially and medically are only fully known to you, and as this is new ground, proper advice should be sought so your individual case can be addressed.

_________________
Forms:

• GL24 (February 2012) - Download pdf
• ESA50 2013 NEW - Download pdf
• ESA113 (03/11) - Download pdf (DWP Form sent to Dr to complete for ESA)

Information:

• Claim Form and medical guide - (Download pdf)
• The Full Facts - Advocacy support list
• Support Group Criteria
• ilegal guide to ESA50 questionnaire
• Turn2us - access to Benefits and Grants
• Contact your local MP
• WCA handbook pdf Revised 2013
• ATOS official complaints procedure pdf

Keep calm and carry on.

Yes - not only is JSA not a wise option, it's not an option at all for someone already designated for ESA in the WRAG. Once your Contrib ESA expires after 12 months, they expect you to apply for Income ESA. However, that's means-tested, and if you have a working partner or a lot of savings, then you wouldn't qualify. This is why so many are up in arms about this. Their income stops and they don't get anything.

I understand that you options at that point are :
1) sign yourself off ESA and apply for JSA, but you probably wouldn't qualify for that either as you wouldn't have the necessary contributions
2) reapply for ESA on the grounds that your condition has changed, go for another assessment, appeal, etc (though I believe there's a 6-month wait before you can reapply? Not sure) - and I'm not sure you would have the contributions record to reapply anyway?

This whole time-limiting of ESA to 12-months is such a nightmare situation. It really really stinks, badly.

_________________
Forms:

• GL24 (February 2012) - Download pdf
• ESA50 2013 NEW - Download pdf
• ESA113 (03/11) - Download pdf (DWP Form sent to Dr to complete for ESA)

Information:

• Claim Form and medical guide - (Download pdf)
• The Full Facts - Advocacy support list
• Support Group Criteria
• ilegal guide to ESA50 questionnaire
• Turn2us - access to Benefits and Grants
• Contact your local MP
• 2012 WCA handbook pdf
• ATOS official complaints procedure pdf

Can't you stay on the WRAG/ CB ESA and just get NI contributions?

Migrating back to JSA would be no good for most, as most probably their 6 months CB JSA is probably exhusted!

Plus I've not had a phone call yet!

Hmmm, this really is a stinker !

I appreciate all the theoretical arguments for not applying for JSA and in practice it would be difficult for someone in my position to argue against the advice of 4 doctors and the appeals panel that I am suddenly "cured" after 365 days, and as pointed out above would the DWP just accept this ? quite possibly not ! So what a position, you are screwed after 365 days whether you are still ill and unfit for work,and in a difficult if not impossible position regarding JSA if you try that route.

So it seems to be coming down to either the "appeal" regarding contributions vs income based ESA, appealing to go onto the support group, or this reapplication for presumably CB ESA after a certain period of time over which there seems to be confusion ( I have seen 3 or 6 months mentioned ).

Of course there appears to be no information about what you live on whist one or all of the above are being pursued, my appeal took over a year to come through so unless there is some system which allows you to claim some sort of "assessment" rate as with ones original ESA application or appeal, one may be waiting a long time for any income at all.

I was feeling more optimistic, but not now.

Oli

I'm thinking aloud here. What if ... as soon as your CB ESA expires, you ask for a reassessment? When you have it, you get a new appeal period - if you were to appeal to go in the support group, backed up with whatever medical evidence you can get, that might be your best bet?

_________________
Forms:

• GL24 (February 2012) - Download pdf
• ESA50 2013 NEW - Download pdf
• ESA113 (03/11) - Download pdf (DWP Form sent to Dr to complete for ESA)

Information:

• Claim Form and medical guide - (Download pdf)
• The Full Facts - Advocacy support list
• Support Group Criteria
• ilegal guide to ESA50 questionnaire
• Turn2us - access to Benefits and Grants
• Contact your local MP
• 2012 WCA handbook pdf
• ATOS official complaints procedure pdf

Thanks Tiddk, actually that may be a good idea, I would not qualify for income based ESA because of partners earnings, but I have got a good 20-30 years worth of NI contributions plus the "credits" ( if indeed they count as "qualilifying contributions ?!).
I have developed another condition since my original ATOS assessment which I have discussed with my GP for the last few months so it will be on record and I am sure he will have no problem writing a letter - for a fee !!
Whether that will be enough to get me into the support group or not is another matter, it might be better to wait for whatever period one has to wait ( have seen 12 weeks, 6 months ?!) and simply reapply for contribution based WRAG ESA, if that is possible.
Of course that leaves the question of what happens whilst one is waiting for the reassessment/ appeal, the easy way might be to go onto JSA but as you say that may then sabotage ones reassessment and is not a good choice. And again you are right, with 4 doctors reports and an appeal panel passing me for ESA would the dwp beleive that I had a miracle cure on the day my ESA runs out ? Quite probably not !

What a system , you go through hell to get the benefit, then after 365 days it is "assumed" you don't need it anymore ( or whatever the logic is behind 365 days )
If you are still ill and not fit for work it isn't clear how you provide financially, if you declare you are suddenly fit for work, then the DWP may use the previous evidence that all suggests you are not fit for work to deny you JSA !! and I bet ones "declaration" would then as you suggest, be used as evidence to deny you further ESA if you appeal !

Oli

There are two quite separate things that involve waiting periods -

1. How soon you can reapply for ESA if you failed the original claim including appeal.

2. How soon you become entitled to Contrib benefit once it has expired - I have a feeling that this might be quite a time, at least a year? And in the meantime your record must have built up again, either through work or NI credits.

_________________
Forms:

• GL24 (February 2012) - Download pdf
• ESA50 2013 NEW - Download pdf
• ESA113 (03/11) - Download pdf (DWP Form sent to Dr to complete for ESA)

Information:

• Claim Form and medical guide - (Download pdf)
• The Full Facts - Advocacy support list
• Support Group Criteria
• ilegal guide to ESA50 questionnaire
• Turn2us - access to Benefits and Grants
• Contact your local MP
• 2012 WCA handbook pdf
• ATOS official complaints procedure pdf

No problem with number one, ATOS failed me , no suprise there ! appeals panel passed me.
Have had NI credits for about 2 years, so maybe no problem there ?!
The only question would be does a "credit" count the same as a "contribution", if it does no problem, but does it ???

Oli

Hi Oli,

National insurance credits

National insurance credits are Class 1 contributions which you do not pay for, except for credits for parents and carers which are Class 3 credits. Credits are added to your contribution record when you are unemployed or have limited capability for work, and in some other situations where you are not working for particular reasons. They will not normally be paid automatically unless HMRC know about your circumstances - for example, you must be signing on with the Jobcentre Plus office, or have a medical certificate. For some types of credits, you also have to apply in writing.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ni/intro/credits.htm

_________________
Forms:

• GL24 (February 2012) - Download pdf
• ESA50 2013 NEW - Download pdf
• ESA113 (03/11) - Download pdf (DWP Form sent to Dr to complete for ESA)

Information:

• Claim Form and medical guide - (Download pdf)
• The Full Facts - Advocacy support list
• Support Group Criteria
• ilegal guide to ESA50 questionnaire
• Turn2us - access to Benefits and Grants
• Contact your local MP
• WCA handbook pdf Revised 2013
• ATOS official complaints procedure pdf

Keep calm and carry on.